PDA

View Full Version : Firepower for miniatures



josta59
03-08-2020, 05:01 PM
Four years ago, I reconfigured the basic rules of the Firepower board game from 1984 into a short set of miniatures rules. I put poor Em through his paces using these rules to play an arcade-style shoot-'em-up game (remember that, Em?).

That was on the previous version of the forum, so it can't be found on this forum. I was just looking these rules over again and thought I'd post them here. I still haven't tried them with actual miniatures, and I'm thinking about doing that soon.

Here they are: 2872

josta59
10-25-2020, 03:24 PM
Hi, all,

It took me seven months since my last post about this, but I finally got around to playtesting my Firepower rules with actual minis, and it worked well. It's very different from any other mini rules I've played, but I'm finding it rather satisfying.

Fair warning: You'll have a bloodbath if you don't pay attention to the rules for crouching and going prone. That makes this game fairly realistic. True to its name, there's some serious firepower in this game, similar to real life, and putting your figures in cover isn't enough. They need to make themselves as small as possible while in cover. That means you have to mark them as crouching or prone, which is kind of a pain, but it's worth it to me. It's possible to come out from hiding and attack, but you have to make sure you have enough movement factors to do that. And you'd better go prone while you do it, or the next guy will get you.

Suppressed and stunned figures recover very quickly with these rules, but I'm ok with that.

So this weekend I decided to work on a new vehicles section for these rules, which was a brutal undertaking, because rules applying to vehicles are spread across the 60 wall-of-text pages that are the 1984 Firepower rules. And there's a lot that's impossible to understand until you study several of the giant tables at the back of the book. It was like a research project. But I came up with something workable. I just playtested them with an RPG vs a Humvee with HMG (10mm minis), and it was fairly realistic and satisfying. You have to roll a 1 to hit a slowly moving Humvee from 13" away, but it's possible. 6-8" away is the sweet spot. The HMG is crazy deadly (15 shots at a time!), and if it gets your RPG guy, it's game over unless you have another guy pick up the RPG. And hope you never come up against a minigun with 120 shots in one go!

I'd love for you guys to give this a look over and tell me your thoughts. I removed the word "basic" from the title, because the basic Firepower rules don't include vehicles or even squad leaders, the latter of which I decided to include long ago.

I also added additional infantry weapons and longer ranges (guided missiles work best at 60" or more!), and I clarified some of the rules that were tripping me up, particularly the grenade blast rules.

Click the link below to download! And feel free to share.

3171

Hagen
10-30-2020, 08:12 PM
Thanks Scott

madman
11-18-2020, 08:41 PM
Is it just me or is this much bloodier than the previous rules?

josta59
11-18-2020, 09:09 PM
Is it just me or is this much bloodier than the previous rules?

By far. A problem I had with No End in Sight was the very slow progress of games due to inability to remove figures from play. Firepower isn't as bloody as Wars of Insurgency, but there is a lot of death.

I used to play the Firepower board game with a very skilled player. He always wiped out my force very quickly. So my minis rules are true to the original. You have to make sure to have your figures go prone or crouch while they're in cover to improve their chance of survival, which can't be done in Wars of Insurgency.

madman
11-19-2020, 08:41 PM
Yes, but that begs the point; How do WE feel about the results both in game terms and as players.

Is the casualty rate what we would expect given the circumstances in "real life", whatever that is?

And

As a GAME, not simulation, do we enjoy that level of casualties? In this case you are playing solo but if playing 1v1 would these results put you off the game as a game?

Curious as to your take. Myself I think a mechanism to either reduce the carnage or impose some other less lethal result such as going to ground, or forcing a retreat rather than take these casualties. Perhaps a mechanism, enacted for either this particular game or for these particular forces in a number of games, which would enable or force the troops a lower kill chance (both for and against) but potential results of "going to ground" or retreat are enhanced or included where there was not the option before. Just thinking (hopefully clearly) out loud.

Whiterook
11-19-2020, 11:05 PM
madman has some valid points and I personally lean towards his thinking on this. I’ve admittedly, not really digested all the rules but, how are does your system handle pinning, disruption, and routing, for instance? All ways to reduce carnage and hope for some rallies, rather than outright slaughter :)

Another thing I was thinking was, fire ratio: Does every combatant fire a weapon every chance they are activated? That’s an important consideration in game design, in that sometimes a soldier simply couldn’t, or wouldn’t fire their weapon either in the course of a battle continuously. For heavy weapons, like heavy or medium machine guns, jamming is often a problem...perhaps something to consider?

Does weather factor into your system? That can affect battle.

Sorry...I just realized I am hijacking the thread...please feel free to delete this post if it’s too much. Hope you don’t mind my prattling on :devilish: :sleeping: I got chirpy for some reason!

josta59
11-20-2020, 08:12 AM
These rules are pretty unique. You have to track every little move carefully. You can only do so many things per impulse, and you never know which player will get the next impulse. Few of your figures will fire weapons in an impulse. And if your game turns are limited, an unexpected retreat could be disastrous. I don't think I'd want that in these rules. They're really different.

Also, I feel like you're piling on at a time when we just saw a couple of well placed explosions. A grenade went off at the feet of four men in turn 1. Of course they're out of the fight. In turn 2, an RPG hit right when a half-squad was exiting a vehicle--of course they're out of the fight. And did you notice the first RPG shot missed?

Also, I'm not telling you guys every little thing that happened. You don't know how many shots missed.

So far, everything that's happened makes a lot of sense to me.

To answer one of Em's questions, figures are suppressed when they are targeted but not hit by automatic fire. They are stunned when they are in the blast zone but not eliminated by an explosion.

Madman, does going to ground mean going prone? I described above how you need to have figures crouch or go prone in cover to improve their chance of survival. I have a man firing from a prone position right now.

Thanks for the comments.

madman
11-20-2020, 10:05 AM
Great your reply addresses my questions/concerns. Since you didn't mention missed shots and every attack seemed to result in pretty much total losses I assumed it was massively bloody. Thank you for clearing things up. Sounds like one to look closer at.

I used to play GDW's Snapshot which used an action points based system. So I have always loved the concept but never found an implementation I liked (always messy in actual play).

Since this is a re-boot of an existing scenario using a different set of rules I assumed discussing how those rules affected the play of the scenario is definitely on topic. If you don't agree Josta please let us know.

josta59
11-20-2020, 01:01 PM
Oh, it's totally on-topic! I appreciate the questions. I'm glad I was able to explain it in a way that helped. I'm not the kind to give every detail of a game I play. That's way too much work, and I don't want to bore people. I want to tell a fun story.

To address Em's question about weather, my previous scenario was at night. I simply made it harder to fire accurately, using a dice roll modification. I got that straight from the original Avalon Hill rules. Bad weather might have a similar effect, but I'd have to look it up in the old rule book to see how they handled it.

I like to keep my rule books very short and simple, so I prefer to put details that wouldn't be used very often into scenario descriptions rather than in the rule book.

Whiterook
11-20-2020, 05:29 PM
Excellent answers and thanks for the clarifications. I love seeing where a designers head is at in how the mechanics work, and why. I can’t wait to see more play and observe things at work!!!

As an aside, I getch’ya on not going in-depth with the after action reporting... being super detail is indeed, extremely time consuming and can lead to burn out...been there! I’ve taken a page from others here and made mine more general.

Anyway, I’m having fun following this thread! Thanks for you hard work in bringing us the play-by-play! :love_heart:

josta59
11-20-2020, 06:10 PM
It is my extreme pleasure. Thanks for your interest, and for taking the time to read it!

madman
12-09-2020, 08:28 PM
Firepower seems very deadly. I remember you didn't like that in the first set of rules you used. NEiS was much less bloody but slow and disjointed (if I can interpret thinking back on it now). So;

Does Firepower, despite it's seemingly bloodiness, give results closer to what you would expect given the scenario conditions?

Does Firepower have some other features which you like and can you let us know what you feel has a "better feel"? (sorry hard to word)

Does Firepower bring some intangibles to the game table which you like and can you describe what the feeling is or effect you like?

Just searching around and don't mind moving up or down in detail if the game feel or results are right. Thank you.

josta59
12-10-2020, 12:03 PM
Hey, buddy...


Does Firepower, despite it's seemingly bloodiness, give results closer to what you would expect given the scenario conditions?

Yes. It's a subjective opinion, of course, and Firepower won't be for everyone. Also, I've never been in combat. And I could change my mind later. But so far, I'm really enjoying these rules both for gameplay and realism. As I said above, it makes sense that a large rebel force would have a hard time gaining any ground against a dug-in spec ops squad in a building, supported by an RPG outside. It makes sense that most of their efforts would result in death. The rebels could've had twice as large a force, and it would still be really hard. I think that's realistic.

When I played this scenario with No End in Sight, hardly any figures went out of the fight when firing at range. It was kind of ridiculous. I was forced to get the rebels inside the building where they could enter close combat. And then it was completely unsatisfying because the close combat rules in No End in Sight are pretty poor. It hardly mattered at that point that one side was better trained, or that they had been dug in to start with. All my efforts to set up an interesting scenario seemed in vain. Not so with Firepower.


Does Firepower have some other features which you like and can you let us know what you feel has a "better feel"? (sorry hard to word)
The thing that kept me coming back to Firepower time and again is the chit-driven activation sequence. I find it not only interesting, but also fun. You never know which side will activate next, and the better trained force will activate more often. Not only that, but the chits also determine which side will rally, and whether a fast-moving unit will stop moving so you can fire at it easier. It's not always perfect, but I think it's a beautiful system.

With No End in Sight, I tried a card-driven activation system, which the author hadn't really thought through. It was ok. But a lot of care was given to the activation system in Firepower, and it shows. And in Firepower, every little movement of every soldier is tracked, and each can only do so many things when their chit is drawn. So you have to think hard about what you will try to accomplish before the next chit is drawn, and sometimes you might take a gamble, hoping the next chit will be yours.


Does Firepower bring some intangibles to the game table which you like and can you describe what the feeling is or effect you like?
I'm not sure what you mean by intangibles. I wonder if I've already answered your question. Feel free to follow up on this. I will say that I purposely included as little of the original 1984 board game rules as I could get by with, because I like a short, simple rule book. So the board game has a lot more detail than my miniatures version.

I hope this was helpful!

Hagen
12-10-2020, 03:31 PM
I like to keep my rule books very short and simple, so I prefer to put details that wouldn't be used very often into scenario descriptions rather than in the rule book.

I agree, of course I'm new to miniatures and prefer learning in smaller increments. Would like to add the boardgame series In The Trenches also puts lesser used rules into their scenario's instead of in main rulebook, so not unheard of.

Whiterook
12-10-2020, 06:26 PM
....The thing that kept me coming back to Firepower time and again is the chit-driven activation sequence. I find it not only interesting, but also fun. You never know which side will activate next, and the better trained force will activate more often. Not only that, but the chits also determine which side will rally, and whether a fast-moving unit will stop moving so you can fire at it easier. It's not always perfect, but I think it's a beautiful system.


That’s a very cool point on chit-drawn systems mechanics. I wasn’t a big fan the first time I ran across such a system, because I’m a Pisces and I have a problem with change :highly_amused: .....but, after playing a game with it the first time, I could not deny its practicality; and then with several plays under my belt, especially with a few differing system, I came to really respect it; and now, I love it! As mentioned, it really adds unpredictability and surprises for boldness into the mix, which when you consider the fluidity of the battlefield, makes a more realistic experience of that very real instance(s) of being unpredictable.... you can of course, guess at the upcoming chances of this activating, or that happening, but there’s a lot more decision consideration going on as to what being bold may do to bite you in the ass.

Interestingly on the subject however, is I’ve noted some designers switching to cards vs chits. LNLP World at War is a good example of that, in which the first iterations of that system is chit draw, but the new retooled version is card draw. Not sure what I like better, t9 be honest, but to digress to an earlier point...I’m a Pisces, and I hate change.

madman
12-11-2020, 09:39 PM
I found and downloaded a copy of Firepower from AH. Is it possible to tell us which sections you are using and any miniature specific rules? Or maybe easier to post a copy of what you are using for rules? Thank you.

josta59
12-12-2020, 10:33 AM
I found and downloaded a copy of Firepower from AH. Is it possible to tell us which sections you are using and any miniature specific rules? Or maybe easier to post a copy of what you are using for rules? Thank you.

Hi, the latest version of the rules I'm using is here: http://www.wargamingdropzone.com/showthread.php?1224-Firepower-for-miniatures&p=6881&viewfull=1#post6881

Most of it came from the first section of the original rules, what they called the "basic rules." But I made some pretty heavy modifications to convert it to a miniatures game.

To add vehicle rules, along with additional weapons that infantry can use to fight vehicles, I had to comb through all the rest of the rules, including the dense tables at the end. It was like a research project.

What I came up with is pretty uniquely mine. If someone else tried to do the same thing, it would probably turn out differently. But few are as crazy as me!

Hagen
12-12-2020, 11:34 AM
A question Josta. I find your chit pull idea interesting. How do you determine how many chits will be used and how many each side will get per turn?

josta59
12-12-2020, 12:47 PM
A question Josta. I find your chit pull idea interesting. How do you determine how many chits will be used and how many each side will get per turn?

Great question. I wrote in the rules, "The number of chits depends on platoon quality and morale. An average platoon gets 3." This is similar to what the original rules say. From there, I leave it up to the players or scenario designer.

For my games, I'll probably always give a professional spec ops platoon 4 chits, and everyone else 3. Other players might want to include superheroes or giant bugs that might get 5 chits, green recruits who might get 2, or completely untrained people who might get 1.

All the chits for both sides get used every turn. When all the chits have been drawn, the turn is over and you put them all back in for the next turn.

Hagen
12-12-2020, 01:15 PM
Great question. I wrote in the rules, "The number of chits depends on platoon quality and morale. An average platoon gets 3." This is similar to what the original rules say. From there, I leave it up to the players or scenario designer.

For my games, I'll probably always give a professional spec ops platoon 4 chits, and everyone else 3. Other players might want to include superheroes or giant bugs that might get 5 chits, green recruits who might get 2, or completely untrained people who might get 1.

All the chits for both sides get used every turn. When all the chits have been drawn, the turn is over and you put them all back in for the next turn.

Thanks Scott, answered all my questions, I'm not unfamiliar with chit pull activation, I'm sure I have a game that uses them but what game slips my mind now. I meant to ask if you use a system for giving more chits to more experienced units so thanks for answering that. Thanks again, something new to try with my minis.

Hagen
12-12-2020, 01:26 PM
Really starting to warm to this idea. Now to dig through my games and find some blank counters to use.

madman
12-12-2020, 03:21 PM
I have to download and look over your rules, and have done nothing with the original game rules but this whole idea intrigues me very much. I am not a big fan of random activations like chit pulls or cards, but for solo play and what you seem to be aiming for, this looks like an excellent route to take. Have to read your link.

madman
12-12-2020, 05:03 PM
Firepower questions;

Going to be the mister picky here.

How many figures does each side have?

Turn Sequence

1 figure is chosen to conduct actions along with any figure within 1/2” per 1 impulse
So a figure with 4 impulses "activates" anyone within 2" as well? OR
A figure can perform actions and "activate" a figure, say after getting close enough then they need to be close enough or what?
An additional figure activated gets how many impulses and MPs? This is an obvious "group activation" but how much can the group do?

4 movement factors per impulse or 4 MF total uses both impulses?

o Mark figures that have expended all MFs; they may not act again until that player’s next impulse phase


o At the end of each impulse phase, change all stunned markers on active player’s figures to suppressed
o When a new chit is drawn:
▪ Remove all speed markers from that player’s figures
▪ Remove suppressed markers from other player’s figures

So every time a figure is stunned or suppressed it is absolutely fine the next time anything happens to it as at the end of it's impulse is partially recovers then before the next impulse (it's side or the opponent) it recovers again and so is "perfect" to receive damage or activate again, or be group activated again.

So a single figure can be activated repeatedly or only once? As written you could continuously activate the same figure over and over again.

Lets ask this first. Please note this is mostly to help you see where someone blind reading your rules would need interpretation. As well as helping us learn these rules. If you don't want to get into this level of naval gazing then can I make "best guesses" and post my interpretation? I would rather get your take on these questions.

josta59
12-12-2020, 07:18 PM
Happy to help. Maybe my writing wasn't very clear. Sorry about that.


How many figures does each side have?

That depends on the order of battle. I think a platoon or less would be best with these rules.


1 figure is chosen to conduct actions along with any figure within 1/2Ē per 1 impulse
So a figure with 4 impulses "activates" anyone within 2" as well? OR
A figure can perform actions and "activate" a figure, say after getting close enough then they need to be close enough or what?

A chit draw gets a certain number of impulses for the corresponding platoon. So if your platoon gets 3 chits per turn and 2 activations per chit, like the rebels in my current game, then every time you draw your platoon's chit, you get 2 impulses for that chit.

So for the first impulse, you would choose a figure in your platoon to conduct actions. If you want to move a whole team at once, you would choose a figure that has a few figures within a half inch of him. They are all activated with up to 4 movement factors for that impulse.

So a figure would not get 4 impulses, or even 2 impulses, with one chit draw. Each figure can only get 1 impulse per chit. But your platoon gets 2 impulses per chit, which means you can choose 2 figures to activate, along with any figures close to them.

Squad leaders can move to other figures on the table and activate them. Non-leaders can't do that.


An additional figure activated gets how many impulses and MPs? This is an obvious "group activation" but how much can the group do?

4 movement factors per impulse or 4 MF total uses both impulses?

4 MFs per figure per impulse. But you get 2 impulses per chit, so you can choose two figures to activate, along with those near them.


So every time a figure is stunned or suppressed it is absolutely fine the next time anything happens to it as at the end of it's impulse is partially recovers then before the next impulse (it's side or the opponent) it recovers again and so is "perfect" to receive damage or activate again, or be group activated again.

Stunned figures recover and become suppressed at the end of the impulse phase (i.e., before the next chit draw).

For suppressed figures, it depends on whose chit is drawn. To rally from suppressed, the opposing platoon's chit needs to be drawn. So your figures that become suppressed remain suppressed as long as you keep drawing your own chit. You can't rally your suppressed figures until your opponent's chit is drawn. And then, yes, they rally automatically and are normal.


So a single figure can be activated repeatedly or only once? As written you could continuously activate the same figure over and over again.

They can be activated more than once in a turn, but only once per impulse phase. In other words, once per chit. If you have 3 chits, one figure can be activated up to 3 times in a turn.

In terms of movement, if a figure is running for an entire turn, they can run 4 inches every time you draw a chit, and therefore up to 12 inches per turn.

I hope this was helpful!

madman
12-12-2020, 08:58 PM
OK I am slowly clearing the fog. Let me rephrase my assumptions, based on your answers, and tell me if I am correct.

So each side would have from a squad (or two?) to a platoon. Just what we have always been talking so good so far.

So each chit gives you 2 impulses which means basically activating 2 figures. Any figures within 1/2" can group action. MP costs are the same for all and all have 4 MPs (instead of movement points maybe call them action points as they are used for various actions not just movement). In order to activate other figures the activating figure has to be the squad NCO, or maybe the platoon NCO or officer.

You have to start within 1/2" to activate others, and not move to "pick them up". Although that can be done over a few activations (different impulses).

So if your figure(s for group activations) is suppressed it automatically recovers at the end of it's impulse. I don't know the conditions under which it can be suppressed so that will have to wait. If stunned it becomes suppressed at the end of it's impulse but becomes clear after an opponent has had an impulse drawn. Again I don't yet know the effects or how a figure gets stunned or suppressed so I will hold off on commenting further until I have read that far.

Last part I understood so no issue there. Again each chit draw produces 2 figure activations of up to 4 MPs each. They cannot be the same figure and I ASSUME if part of a group activation again you could not use that to activate a figure twice on the same activation chit draw.

Just to be clear every chit draw only allows 2 figures to activate?

Again I am asking, in I hope, simple language just so we all know how your rules work, not to be anal. Thank you.

josta59
12-12-2020, 09:47 PM
So each chit gives you 2 impulses which means basically activating 2 figures. Any figures within 1/2" can group action.

Correct!


MP costs are the same for all and all have 4 MPs

Well, except for leaders, who get 5, and suppressed figures, who get 3.


(instead of movement points maybe call them action points as they are used for various actions not just movement).

Makes sense. The original rules call them movement factors because every little movement is so carefully tracked. Lifting a rifle to fire it is looked at the same way as turning your body, taking a couple of steps, or loading an RPG. So it really is "just movement." Every action a figure makes in any game is really just movement, except for giving a command.


In order to activate other figures the activating figure has to be the squad NCO, or maybe the platoon NCO or officer.

They have to be some type of leader in order to move to a figure to activate it. As we already discussed, any figure you choose to activate can activate any figure that is already within 1/2" when you activate it. Fire teams don't need squad leaders. Anyone in the fire team can lead it. If they split up, they can no longer be activated together. They become separate teams.


You have to start within 1/2" to activate others, and not move to "pick them up".

Correct. But leader figures can move to "pick them up."


Although that can be done over a few activations (different impulses).

I'm not quite understanding your meaning here. Teams can stay together as long as you want them to, unless they're separated because a figure or two in the middle went out of the fight, causing remaining figures to have more than 1/2" between them.


So if your figure(s for group activations) is suppressed it automatically recovers at the end of it's impulse.

Only if the next chit drawn is your opponent's. If it's yours, your suppressed figures remain suppressed.

Also, groups aren't suppressed together. Only individual figures can be suppressed by specific circumstances, resulting in just those figures having 3 MFs. The rest of the group can be just fine and still get 4 MFs.


I don't know the conditions under which it can be suppressed so that will have to wait.

The conditions are:

Targeted but not hit by automatic fire
Stunned by an explosion and then recovering in a later impulse phase




If stunned it becomes suppressed at the end of it's impulse but becomes clear after an opponent has had an impulse drawn.

Correct. I got this wrong in my previous post and will correct it above. Sorry for any confusion.


Again each chit draw produces 2 figure activations of up to 4 MPs each. They cannot be the same figure

Exactly!


and I ASSUME if part of a group activation again you could not use that to activate a figure twice on the same activation chit draw.

Not totally sure what you mean here, but a figure can only have up to 4 MFs per impulse (3 if suppressed, 5 if a leader). So if they're activated in a group and move 4", they're done moving until the next chit is drawn.


Just to be clear every chit draw only allows 2 figures to activate?

Right, although the scenario design can allow a different number of impulses (i.e., activations) per chit. For example, the Chinese in my current game get 4 chits per turn and 3 impulses per chit.

And of course, you can activate figures within 1/2" of the 2 figures you choose, so really a lot of figures could be activated. But you can only choose 2 figures. That's why I use the word impulse rather than activation, like the original rules.


Again I am asking, in I hope, simple language just so we all know how your rules work, not to be anal. Thank you.

Happy to help!

madman
12-12-2020, 10:20 PM
I can't keep up quotes keeping mine and yours plus new so lets see if this works. Seems like we are on the same page for most of it except...

So you don't have to be a leader to do group activations. Fine. But what is this about leaders "move to a figure to activate it"? Isn't this just group activation or is there some other form of function I am missing here? Your next section means leaders (with 5 MFs) can use 1, move adjacent to a figure(s) and now they both (all) have 4 MFs left to play with each? The leader could also have started close enough for a group activation and the leader would still have 5 MFs while the rest only have 4. Please clarify.

I like the play of the above but just looking for clarity of understanding.

OK stunned is the "worst" effect mentioned by this time in the game. At the end of your activation it goes to suppressed at worst. Since, I assume, you cannot be stunned during YOUR activation (except for possible opportunity fire) this would never happen during your activation so a stunned figure will be out of action until their side has pulled a chit. THEN it takes an enemy chit pull to clear the stun to a clear. Note this happens before any actions (or am I getting the sequence of play wrong)? I read it as happening before any MFs happen that chit pull. (Read when a new chit is drawn: meaning to me first thing that chit pull before anything else happens). Now that makes sense. Time has to pass (one of yours then just before theirs) as opposed to clearing right away. Luck of the draw and all.

Can leaders move 5"?

I see you are allowing special units to get 3 activations per chit draw. I think this needs some play to see if that is not too powerful.

Let's clear this section up then on to the next. I hope you don't mind what I have read so far maybe the best squad to platoon system I have looked at yet, or has the potential to be. Or I might just pick and choose parts to add to another but I tend to want to keep an entire system together and not pick and choose.

josta59
12-13-2020, 10:30 AM
So you don't have to be a leader to do group activations. Fine. But what is this about leaders "move to a figure to activate it"? Isn't this just group activation or is there some other form of function I am missing here? Your next section means leaders (with 5 MFs) can use 1, move adjacent to a figure(s) and now they both (all) have 4 MFs left to play with each? The leader could also have started close enough for a group activation and the leader would still have 5 MFs while the rest only have 4. Please clarify.

You have it right. This function of the leader is there if you want to activate a figure that didn't start within 1/2" of the leader. It's just there if you want to use it. I haven't used it, myself.

Note that leaders can only move up to 4" in an impulse, just like all other figures. The fifth MF is there for other possible actions. A leader can move 3" and still fire a weapon with their remaining 2 MFs. Other figures can't do that.


OK stunned is the "worst" effect mentioned by this time in the game. At the end of your activation it goes to suppressed at worst. Since, I assume, you cannot be stunned during YOUR activation (except for possible opportunity fire) this would never happen during your activation so a stunned figure will be out of action until their side has pulled a chit.

That's a great point. I didn't think about that yesterday. You're making me think!

Your figure becomes stunned during your opponent's turn. It remains stunned after your own chit is drawn and you've conducted two impulses. When those are over, that's when your stunned figure finally changes to suppressed.


THEN it takes an enemy chit pull to clear the stun to a clear.

I think you've got it. For clarity, in case anyone else reads this, figures don't go directly from stunned to normal. But I know what you mean. A figure that has already gone from stunned to suppressed would then go to normal when the enemy chit is drawn.

And I guess that could happen almost immediately. If you get to the end of your impulse phase and your stunned figure changes to suppressed, and then the next chit is the enemy's, your figure would go back to normal right away. I hadn't thought about that.


Note this happens before any actions (or am I getting the sequence of play wrong)? I read it as happening before any MFs happen that chit pull. (Read when a new chit is drawn: meaning to me first thing that chit pull before anything else happens). Now that makes sense. Time has to pass (one of yours then just before theirs) as opposed to clearing right away. Luck of the draw and all.

Exactly right.


Can leaders move 5"?

No. Their fifth MF can be used for other actions (i.e., movements, LOL).


I see you are allowing special units to get 3 activations per chit draw. I think this needs some play to see if that is not too powerful.

Sure. It's what I'm playing through now. Adjust as you feel necessary. I saw scenarios in the old rule book with a similar setup. But you're right, my spec ops platoons have been very powerful. I might consider giving them 4 chits and only 2 impulses per chit. Very reasonable. They could also get 3 chits and 3 impulses per chit. I haven't tried either of those. Might be fun to experiment with.


I hope you don't mind what I have read so far maybe the best squad to platoon system I have looked at yet, or has the potential to be.

Wow, that's great to hear. Wish I could take full credit for it. If you want, you and I could play a short game on the forum so you can get a feel for it.

I used an earlier version of these rules to play a game with Em a few years ago. I tried something very experimental with him. I'm not sure if he enjoyed it. It was...interesting. I wish that thread were still available to see.

madman
12-13-2020, 10:38 AM
Quote Originally Posted by madman
I see you are allowing special units to get 3 activations per chit draw. I think this needs some play to see if that is not too powerful.
Sure. It's what I'm playing through now. Adjust as you feel necessary. I saw scenarios in the old rule book with a similar setup. But you're right, my spec ops platoons have been very powerful. I might consider giving them 4 chits and only 2 impulses per chit. Very reasonable. They could also get 3 chits and 3 impulses per chit. I haven't tried either of those. Might be fun to experiment with.


It sounds good and not a put down but it feels like it may be too powerful. Hence the "this needs playtesting" statement.


Quote Originally Posted by madman
I hope you don't mind what I have read so far maybe the best squad to platoon system I have looked at yet, or has the potential to be.
Wow, that's great to hear. Wish I could take full credit for it. If you want, you and I could play a short game on the forum so you can get a feel for it.

I used an earlier version of these rules to play a game with Em a few years ago. I tried something very experimental with him. I'm not sure if he enjoyed it. It was...interesting. I wish that thread were still available to see.


I can never see how to pull this off by remote but frankly I am bored and mis gaming and am willing to try. Please note I will need some (lots?) of hand holding and maybe some kicking me back on track. I am willing to give it a try but let's finish this analysis of the rules first please.

madman
12-13-2020, 10:47 AM
Firepower for miniatures rules part deux

Second coloum page 1

I would change MFs (movement factors) to APs (action points)

Does a stunned leader also only have 3 MFs?

I am holding off one commenting on only fire once per impulse as I looked ahead and am both confused and stunned. I may come back to this after I know more.

Very little mostly as I see the rules as clear and straightforward.

Looking good so far. Whee!

josta59
12-13-2020, 11:05 AM
Does a stunned leader also only have 3 MFs?

I'm sure you mean suppressed rather than stunned, and I was afraid you'd ask that. I didn't think about it when I wrote my version of the rules. You care about this stuff more than I do, and I'm actually using the rules!

The original rule book says, "Suppressed soldiers have their available number of movement factors reduced by one (ie. from "4" to "3" movement factors)." So you'd go from 5 to 4 for a leader.

madman
12-13-2020, 11:13 AM
I'm sure you mean suppressed rather than stunned, and I was afraid you'd ask that. I didn't think about it when I wrote my version of the rules. You care about this stuff more than I do, and I'm actually using the rules!

The original rule book says, "Suppressed soldiers have their available number of movement factors reduced by one (ie. from "4" to "3" movement factors)." So you'd go from 5 to 4 for a leader.

My bad. But what is YOUR take on it. I get the vibe you may or may not agree with the original interpretation.

josta59
12-13-2020, 11:18 AM
My bad. But what is YOUR take on it. I get the vibe you may or may not agree with the original interpretation.

I do agree. It makes total sense to me. My goal from the start has been to create a rule set for miniatures that is faithful to the original rules. The designers put a lot of hard work into the board game, and I believe in what they did.

madman
12-13-2020, 11:46 AM
Firepower: Rules for miniatures

Page 2

Other than the couple issues below this is very clear and an entire page can be covered by ONE of my anal rants!

First up is the table "hit number according to range".

I ASSUME rate of fire is the number of dice you roll to hit with. For example an lmg rolls 12 dice.
This needs to be stated.
OR does this weapon only have 3 bursts in total and each time it attacks in an impulse it only rolls 4 dice? This makes a big difference.
If the former is the case why write it that way, just say ROF=12?

If the latter you already messed up page one COMBAT where it is stated ammo is unlimited.
If you are trying to reconcile original rules which included reloading, etc. this needs cleaning up.

Guided Missile should be removed as it seems outside of this level of game play. If not then there must be lots of rules missing, especially as it figures in vehicles on page 3 where it belongs. If kept here, and I can see it as a last ditch defense, then I can see it acting like a grenade against infantry, same as RPG, LAW and mortar. Also mortars need more rules. I am thinking a section covering these four weapons is in order.

Man are grenades effective. Suggest a grenade blast zone template for game play.

SQUAD LEADERS clears up all previous questions there.

Whiterook
12-13-2020, 11:53 AM
Hi, the latest version of the rules I'm using is here: http://www.wargamingdropzone.com/showthread.php?1224-Firepower-for-miniatures&p=6881&viewfull=1#post6881


Scott... are those rules, linked to in the above, your written rules, or were they part of the 1989ís gamesí rules? Or someone elseís interpretation somewhere else?


A question Josta. I find your chit pull idea interesting. How do you determine how many chits will be used and how many each side will get per turn?

I was wondering the same thing. I looked at Scottís reference rules and it states:


Each player gets a number of chits for each turn.

The number of chits depends on platoon quality and morale.

An average platoon gets 3.



But it doesnít really specify how many chits go to non-average platoons in the Sequence Chits section of the rules, or what a non-average platoon is. I want to spend a little more time with those rules for possible use with some of my miniatures.

Interesting that they are just three pages long! ...however, I am wondering if they are an appendix to the full AH Firepower game rules.

madman
12-13-2020, 12:01 PM
Just realized the bursts could mean you could attack a number of targets equal to the first number and the second number is the number of rolls per target you get. BUT that contradicts the page 1 Combat paragraph which states you can only attack one target per impulse. Needs a judgement call somewhere.

madman
12-13-2020, 12:04 PM
I assume they are totally Scott's rules as;

1. They are done in the same style of presentation as his Quick Frik rules.
2. The original rules may have provided the kernel but were vastly longer. This is pared down to the bone, which is again in Scott's approach. Myself they would have been somewhere between 40 and 200 pages. If you don't believe I can write that much then I can send you my 100 additional rules I wrote for Striker back in the day!

Hagen
12-13-2020, 12:45 PM
Just read through the rules again, I like them. I will need to tweak a little for my time period obviously. Scott, you play in 1/72?

josta59
12-13-2020, 01:41 PM
Just read through the rules again, I like them. I will need to tweak a little for my time period obviously. Scott, you play in 1/72?

Thank you, friend. My figures and military vehicles are 10mm scale, and my buildings and civilian vehicles are N-scale railroad gear. So I play in the range of 1/144 to 1/185, I'd guess.

josta59
12-13-2020, 01:47 PM
Scott... are those rules, linked to in the above, your written rules, or were they part of the 1989ís gamesí rules? Or someone elseís interpretation somewhere else?

Hi, Em! They are my own conversion of the 1984 board game rules for use with miniatures. You and I played an earlier version of them a few years ago, when I had you playing a type of arcade game simulation using these rules.


But it doesnít really specify how many chits go to non-average platoons in the Sequence Chits section of the rules, or what a non-average platoon is.

I left a few things for players and scenario designers to decide for themselves. I'd say you could use 1 chit for totally untrained people, 2 for green recruits, 4 for spec ops or mercs, and 5 for superheroes or fantasy/sci-fi elements.


I am wondering if they are an appendix to the full AH Firepower game rules.

That was a board game, of course. This is just a simple conversion for miniatures.

josta59
12-13-2020, 01:54 PM
I ASSUME rate of fire is the number of dice you roll to hit with. For example an lmg rolls 12 dice.

Correct.


OR does this weapon only have 3 bursts in total and each time it attacks in an impulse it only rolls 4 dice? This makes a big difference.
If the former is the case why write it that way, just say ROF=12?

Separate bursts from automatic weapons may be fired at different targets within 1/2Ē of each other. Only one burst may be fired at one target per impulse.

So if you're firing at a group of two figures with an LMG, you're only allowed 8 shots, 4 per figure.



Suggest a grenade blast zone template for game play.

I just use a small measuring tape and measure 2.5" from the center of the blast. Any figure within that range will need to roll for damage.

Hagen
12-13-2020, 01:54 PM
Thank you, friend. My figures and military vehicles are 10mm scale, and my buildings and civilian vehicles are N-scale railroad gear. So I play in the range of 1/144 to 1/185, I'd guess.

Thanks for jogging my memory! I do remember that now.

Whiterook
12-13-2020, 01:59 PM
Just read through the rules again, I like them. I will need to tweak a little for my time period obviously. Scott, you play in 1/72?

i believe he plays in 10mm.

I too am looking closely at his 3-pager rules. Iím thinking of looking at the full Firepower rules and comparing. Like you, Iím eyeing this for a play test with my Stargate SG-1 minis (28mm)....and maybe even my DUST figures (same scale).

Hagen
12-13-2020, 02:12 PM
i believe he plays in 10mm.

I too am looking closely at his 3-pager rules. I’m thinking of looking at the full Firepower rules and comparing. Like you, I’m eyeing this for a play test with my Stargate SG-1 minis (28mm)....and maybe even my DUST figures (same scale).

Three page rules are fine with me, especially when just starting out as i am. Sounds like Scott has a few of us looking at putting some minis on their table. I would enjoy seeing your miniatures on the table.

josta59
12-13-2020, 02:36 PM
Just realized the bursts could mean you could attack a number of targets equal to the first number and the second number is the number of rolls per target you get. BUT that contradicts the page 1 Combat paragraph which states you can only attack one target per impulse. Needs a judgement call somewhere.

These don't contradict. You can only attack one target per impulse, but that doesn't mean a target can only receive one bullet per attack. If you're targeting a group of figures, each figure receives one burst. A burst consists of multiple shots, but a burst is only one attack.

madman
12-13-2020, 02:55 PM
Houston we have a conundrum. I propose you rewrite page 1 coloumn 2 Combat to read;

Except for grenades, and other explosive rounds, a weapon targets only one figure per burst in any impulse. Multiple targets must be within 1/2" of each other. A figure may not fire a weapon and throw a grenade in the same impulse. Ammunition is unlimited.

I added explosive rounds above as the effect of the impact of the warhead of mortars, artillery, grenades, LAWs, RPGs, ATGMs and potentially area effect energy weapons such as Traveller's Plasma and Fusion guns (along with I am sure other milieu's weapons like bug acid attacks etc.) will be similar to how grenades are presently handled given various differences in specifics. For example a single mortar round would act like a grenade but with varying radii, an artillery sheaf would be treated as a single area (as opposed to concentric zones like grenades) of effectiveness, as would the covered area of a PGMP or FGMP from Traveller as an example. I add all this not to force you into writing rules at this point but to "cover your ass" that future "expansions" have a place to work from.



Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
OR does this weapon only have 3 bursts in total and each time it attacks in an impulse it only rolls 4 dice? This makes a big difference.
If the former is the case why write it that way, just say ROF=12?
Separate bursts from automatic weapons may be fired at different targets within 1/2” of each other. Only one burst may be fired at one target per impulse.

So if you're firing at a group of two figures with an LMG, you're only allowed 8 shots, 4 per figure.

madman
12-13-2020, 02:57 PM
I think our thoughts passed each other in the interweb. That and I stare at my posts for a while before hitting the post button.

madman
01-30-2021, 10:06 PM
Hey Scott. I got side tracked and have fallen off the edge of these rules but have taken all of my and others Q&As with the idea of reviewing everything. So I may re-open these rules can of worms or decide we have addressed everything I and others have thought of.

If not I hope to continue where we left off.

If so I can make the Q&A stuff as a text file and post it somewhere or email it if anyone is interested. My intent is to print it out and mark up one of my printed out rules sets as appropriate for my use. Your answers and interpretations will expand the rules as "I" see fit. Thank you.

josta59
01-31-2021, 09:21 AM
Do as you like, sir.

madman
01-31-2021, 11:56 AM
OK Scott I have gone over all our Questions and Answers from the previous posts and the following questions or interpretations remain. Again I am only addressing pages 1 and 2.

For now I am keeping with the original terms like movement factors (MFs) as opposed to Action Points (APs) which I think you liked better.


Stunned was not clear as written but your reply was basically;

Figures become stunned if within 1" of a grenade. (this seems to be the only way to become stunned)
Stunned figures immediately go prone.
Stunned figures have no MPs.
Stunned figures become suppressed AFTER the next friendly chit is drawn and all friendly troops have done their impulses. (they get none)


You didn't give a straight answer on how many MPs a suppressed leader would have. I am thinking 3 as opposed to 4 (5-1) as it may better limit the superhero effect of leaders. Your opinion or interpretation of the rules?


I am still confused about the rules for automatic weapons. Lets stick with the lmg example. It has 3 bursts of 4 shots. Each shot gives a single die roll so this means 3 bursts of 4 dice rolled. Each burst can only attack a maximum of a single target, but one target can receive multiple attacks. As written only one target can be attacked per impulse so only one target gets all 12 dice. I don't care if AS WRITTEN you can attack other targets within 1/2" as you can still only attack one target. So I propose my interpretation of;

Any weapon with multiple bursts can attack a number of targets (all within 1/2" of the first target) equal to the number of bursts. Each target is subject to one die roll per shot. The first target requires 2 MP and each additional target requires one MP. So for example the lmg can attack 3 targets at a cost of (2+1+1)=4 MPs, basically all its MPs that impulse (and only if it has 4 MPs). The three targets would be attacked with 4 dice each.

Does that sound reasonable?



The only other questions I have are you impressions post game using these rules. So what is your opinion post game of;

Giving 3 impulses for some troops and the trade off of fewer chits but more impulses per chit. Frankly I found the Chinese dominated that game BUT if meant to be spec ops then they should have. However, this is supposed to be a game and both sides are supposed to have fun, have some way of balancing the victory conditions if not the forces, etc..

josta59
01-31-2021, 12:42 PM
Hey, that sounds great, madman. Do as you like. The way I'm playing is working great for me.

Hagen
01-31-2021, 04:03 PM
Hey, that sounds great, madman. Do as you like. The way I'm playing is working great for me.

These rules are great as they leave you a lot of different avenues to explore. I have incorporated the combat chart from No Mans Land, a board game while leaving chit pull, phases, movement, grenade blast rules and firing ranges from Scotts redo of Firepower rules.

Hagen
01-31-2021, 04:53 PM
Kind of cool when you can just plug in pieces of rules from different games and not miss a beat.

madman
01-31-2021, 05:19 PM
Kind of cool when you can just plug in pieces of rules from different games and not miss a beat.

Yes, I am looking at quite a few skirmish level rules with and eye towards adding bits to "flesh out" the best set I have found.

Whiterook
02-07-2021, 06:32 PM
It’s healthy to think outside of the box, as in this instance of adapting rules across different platforms. The rules I, reading now (Boots on the Ground) have been slammed by elitist wargamers, as being too simplistic...but that to me is just another opportunity in gaming...it should be fresh and varied! What Scott and Mike are doing, gaming a co binational of rules as a single new system has inspired me!