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  1. #1
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    Thoughts on 6 mm post Apocalypse gaming

    Well lets stick my neck out a little. Back in the Day (BitD) I used to play an interesting post apocalypse rpg in which players were supposed to be tasked with returning civilization to some sense of where it should be. In order to survive the eotwawki the players are in cryogenic sleep during the "end". I was in on this from the get go, even have one of the pre publication copies, think a 1980s version of Kickstarter.

    Now what always interested me was how the various groups who survived the end interacted with each other and the players group, lets call it "the project". I always wanted to game battles between surviving groups (symmetric combat) and battles between them and the project (asymmetric). I also was not in agreement with many of the thinkers then and now who believe civilization, which barely survives eotwawki has the resources to keep building M1 tanks and servicing all modern day equipment. My point of reference is rubber. If all the trade has gone due to world blowing up and people are more interested in keeping food in their bellies who has time or inclination to spend their days gathering latex. Then transporting it and processing it into tires when all that equipment decades ago turned into at best irradiated metal or at worst slag. So in my world view things are closer to old west at best. Kinda like the thinking behind Firefly in a lot of ways. Do these people have any idea of the specialty minerals needed for modern optics let alone the technology to turn it into pure optic glass, etc.. So when I was thinking on the first scenario of my future I discussed it with a friend. Her first impression was it sounded like a western. That started the ball rolling.

    So no one has "spare" rubber (for example) except the rich few who can afford to pay suckers to go into the wastes to retrieve any worth while items and since the wastes are basically any town say above 15000 pre war which were targeted by an SS-?? there ain't much left especially after 150 years. So for most folk the primary means of travel is horses, wagons or feet for the poorer wretches. Rubber is just one point but to me a primary one. Now I have run all kinds of scenarios with the different factions in my mind, or as i saw them, and who they may do battle with. In most cases I didn't get the feel for this cross between degenerating civilizations and those who have decided to try bettering themselves with or without the help of the project. Until I came up with this lead in idea.

    The game would be billed as a post apoc battle between a gang of raiders and the last town in their area this year. For the gang it is straight forward take the town before harvest season ends while the town has the best takings and the least chance of natural defense from a hard winter. The primary motivation of the gang members will be to better their positions in the gang, maintain themselves or vie for control based on the plunder those under their control can bring home. Each gang member would play a commander of say a squad to platoon size group (can't call them units) bent on stripping the town of its wealth. Think food supplies, livestock, and slaves. The town itself may prove of use as a temporary headquarters until the gang has run it down through neglect or worse. Many of the low level "fighters" would be on foot with melee weapons at best. The leaders old firearms, some pre war, but little supplies and no heavy weapons. The leaders and some of the better troops would have horses with the bulk of the troops arriving in wagons which would then be use to transport the luckless villager's belongings back to the gang's current base and buyers.

    The town would be arranged with an internal group of defenders, of little better arms than the attackers. Now into this mix is a few survivalists, as the gangers call them. Since in the pre game reconnaissance it would be seen they have rubber tires on their weird wagons the survivalists would be seen as either "posers" rich folk wanting to appear dangerous but really easy marks, or if taken seriously as a real potential threat. I have a few ideas on what resources the project can bring to bear.

    So the idea is the game is presented as something akin to Mad Max but the reality that faces the players is more like shootout at the OK corral with only a few loads of rounds per gun at best.

    Or so the story goes.
    Last edited by madman; 05-27-2019 at 09:40 PM.

  2. #2
    Well! ....that’s a hell of a game idea!!! By the time you got to Mad Max vs the Clanton’s/Earps, that’s the exact vibe I was getting!!! OK, so my thoughts? I love it!

    It’s a solid idea that I think would work post apoc, as you mention, but I have a hard time with the recovery of Earth after make nuking...I can’ help but think, even with most survivor’s having come out clean from stasis, remaining clean for long from radiation effects. I think I’d get wary of the ‘Mutant Factor’ in devising whether to give such a game a try; it’s squarely out of my preference area.

    However, thinking along the lines of a society a bit worse off from a devastated humanity, such as seen in shows like “The Last Ship”, or even further back to “Jericho”, I am totally grooving on the idea of a 20-21st Century society kicking it back to 19th Century tech, idea. I’d like to see where this could go.

    As far as scale, 6 or 10mm wold likely be best for multiple gang/large scale (almost platoon-sized) battling; however, the feel to me is more in the 15 - 28mm range, played in skirmish.

    Is this an actual game design idea that you are looking to further develop upon? If so, I can move this for you, from where it currently resides in the War Room (devoted to playing Play-by-Post games) to the Proving Grounds in the War College

    If this is the starter most for your playing it solitaire within this thread, we can leave it here (I know...it can be confusing where to post sometimes...no probs, mate!)
    If you can't be a good example, be a horrible warning

  3. #3
    Super Moderator josta59's Avatar
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    I'm also curious how you arrived at 6mm for this. It's a highly unusual scale for post-apocalyptic gaming. I assumed you were going to have lots of big mechs, but then I saw you talking about gangs in a town, without large vehicles, and wondered why you'd want to try that in 6mm. Sounds like you want to have an entire detailed town on the table, which could be very cool. Not often done.

    I like small models for all the space and maneuvering they allow. You can do just about anything in 6mm...except have individual characters break away and do their own thing, which is something you might want to do in such a fantasy setting as this. I use individual basing in 15mm, and even then it can be difficult to grab individual figures and place them the way you want, just because they're so small. You probably won't have many lone wolves in 6mm. Their bases would prevent them from getting very close to other characters. Any indoor confrontations would be very difficult to model, even more than with larger figures in larger buildings.

  4. #4
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    I want to "advertise" it (description on the con's web site) to give the impression of a Mad Max scenario but reality will be closer to old west when it comes down to playing it. Mostly I want players to know this is post apoc and hopefully let their imaginations fill in stuff that isn't there.

    As for rebuilding civilization the intent was obscured by details and as for role playing that aspect my intent, like the project itself, was to have educated players who had knowledge about the areas which would need salvaging/rebuilding not combat hounds. This is not that kind RPG and this is not an RPG scenario..

    This will be an actual design of one scenario which I hope to draw out or develop upon for something akin to a campaign but based on gaming not role playing the scenario(s), preferably a couple times a year at a couple cons (once each for for 2 cons about 8 hours distant so the players are not the same). Scale will be 6 mm as that is what I have. Rules will probably be Force on Force modified as and if needed. Other than to play test it I have no intent to make it my solitaire game (I found I cannot do solitaire) but may run it at the local club again to playtest only. The intent of our fearless leader is to bring enough games from our club to one of the cons that we "sponsor" and fill one of the tables for the entire weekend.

  5. #5
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    Sorry Josta saw your comment after I tried to post my reply. I don't know what the time out is but I took too long to quick reply. I'll address your comments separately.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by josta59 View Post
    I'm also curious how you arrived at 6mm for this. It's a highly unusual scale for post-apocalyptic gaming. I assumed you were going to have lots of big mechs, but then I saw you talking about gangs in a town, without large vehicles, and wondered why you'd want to try that in 6mm. Sounds like you want to have an entire detailed town on the table, which could be very cool. Not often done.

    I like small models for all the space and maneuvering they allow. You can do just about anything in 6mm...except have individual characters break away and do their own thing, which is something you might want to do in such a fantasy setting as this. I use individual basing in 15mm, and even then it can be difficult to grab individual figures and place them the way you want, just because they're so small. You probably won't have many lone wolves in 6mm. Their bases would prevent them from getting very close to other characters. Any indoor confrontations would be very difficult to model, even more than with larger figures in larger buildings.
    Maybe using the quote reply will be better for keeping on track (yea, right like my mind isn't gonna wander..... oh shiny......)

    I have something like 5000 6 mm figures from Colonials to ultra modern. I also have all the terrain, buildings, woods, etc.. The intent is to create the town and some of the surrounding area (specific terrain features) either on one board or a few all on the same table(s). Leaders will be represented by bases with from 1 to 3 figures depending on what I determine to be an ideal command unit. That will also affect how much and what type of control they have over the units under their command. Troops under leaders command will run from weapons teams of two up to groups (gangs) of a dozen or what fits and has value (whatever my method of balancing the scenario). All leaders will have command of multiple groups with the survivalists in the town possibly being singles or two person units. As part of adapting FoF for my needs the game area will probably be on 2" hexes at 50 m per hex (think Squad Leader scale) and weapons will have effective and up to maximum ranges as opposed to table wide now. There is intended to be enough gang members to resemble a few platoons to a company of infantry.

    Since the players are all "commanders" of some unit(s) I can keep them separate and smaller. Since many units can still physically occupy a hex at this scale having a few interact is still viable. If all the leaders end up in the same space bad things WILL happen. They just may not know it until too late. Plus, in order to command their troops they need to stay close to them or else everything gets stalled fast. If all the gang leaders get together for a conference I know who would just love that! As for indoor and other "special" terrain types all units who occupy a hex have the offensive, sighting and defensive benefits of the primary terrain type of the hex. So they may be individual buildings but for game purposes the hex will be treated as a built up area.

    Since most games nowadays are either skirmish or very closely skirmish based I have had to review my thoughts wrt 6 mm and skirmish. Not perfected but I am getting both a handle and ideas on making 6 mm work. It has to, I have too much in it and personally have no intent on buying into another scale or writing all my own rules, period. So make it work!

    No mechs per se but lets just say one member of the towns defense (survivalists) isn't named Bert Gummer for nothin'.

  7. #7
    WOW! You have quit a bit thought out and in the soup!Fascinating stuff, and I highly encourage you to use this thread to further develop and fill out/in the mechanics, as well as the successes and hurdles you faced along the way.

    One of the biggest hopes I’ve had for this forum was offering threads like this to help people understand and figure it game design. That kind of resources just isn’t out there so, I am more than happy to provide the blackboard!!!

    I am going to move this thread to the Proving Grounds in the War Room so that folks can understand this is developmental in a game design.

    If you try a play test, or want to see if members here will play one through a Play by Post, you are more than welcome to contribute a thread in the War Rooms’, Playtest Wargames subforum.

    Please keep this thread going, as you have my and Scott’s attention, and probably many more!!!
    If you can't be a good example, be a horrible warning

  8. #8
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    So I see things are moved. If others were following maybe a "moved to" post or thread. I do not know if you, as admin, can track who looks at what.

    My hobby from early '90s until a couple years ago was building RC planes. Since making one from kit or scratch was akin to project management (if you wanted it to work and work well) I am thinking of the same lines here. So this thread will cover all aspects of my above scenario including how I will make the rules work, thoughts on terrain and forces as well as results of playtesting. If any of you want to try the scenario or have me run you in a play by email version just pipe up at the suitable point. I am also very open to suggestions but unless you want to give me full and free copies of games or rules you start suggesting please limit those aspects to "in these rules that is handled like so...".

    I intend to give titles to my posts which will indicate what aspect I am addressing. I also hope to keep my posts to one aspect. Please kick me if I get into too much at once or don't use a title or suitable one.

    So my ideas for topics

    Introducing me
    rules of play
    scenario
    forces
    map
    terrain
    specials
    playtests

    I don't know how to put maps into the game and may not have a specific map except for the scenario. So for that I might say the crop fields around the town provide open areas 4 hexes from any woods to any buildings (already having said hexes are 50 m and a building hex will be a built up hex despite the exact number of structures contained). Perhaps there is a common system where I can make maps and post (VASSL?).

    Hmm. I had the specifics of scenario indented now they are all in a row. Any ideas how to get back tabs?

    I see you don't have separate titles for each post. I guess I will have to make the first line the title.
    Last edited by madman; 05-29-2019 at 07:43 PM. Reason: see last two lines

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    So I see things are moved. If others were following maybe a "moved to" post or thread. I do not know if you, as admin, can track who looks at what.
    I left an expiry link back in the War Room, that when clicked, will bring you here. It will disappear after a week, so anyone following it will be able to see it was moved, if they go there first

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    I don't know how to put maps into the game and may not have a specific map except for the scenario. So for that I might say the crop fields around the town provide open areas 4 hexes from any woods to any buildings (already having said hexes are 50 m and a building hex will be a built up hex despite the exact number of structures contained). Perhaps there is a common system where I can make maps and post (VASSL?).
    There’s not a lot of software out there that can accomplish what you wish. HexDraw is a great software by Jo Bader, and pretty inexpensive (under $50 last I checked). It makes maps akin to what you see in Advanced Squad Leader.

    VASSAL is certainly a possibility but, you need to create your own map, save it to file, and import it into the VASSAL Engine. Not rocket science, but not easy, either!

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    Hmm. I had the specifics of scenario indented now they are all in a row. Any ideas how to get back tabs?
    The forum software is limited in lists and indents, but you can create forms so if you separate things into tables, you might be able to tweak things, but it’s complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    I see you don't have separate titles for each post. I guess I will have to make the first line the title.
    Please see this following thread on how to title posts... http://www.wargamingdropzone.com/sho...=4785#post4785
    If you can't be a good example, be a horrible warning

  10. #10
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    Sorry I am fighting an eye infection so somedays I don't feel like doing anything and somedays I just am exhausted and go to sleep like last night. I'll put something together today.

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