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  1. #11
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Introducing Me

    I was going to make this, like most posts long and detailed. If you want that let me know. Here I am in a nut shell.

    I am just about 60 and started gaming in my early teens in the early '70s. I am into all aspects of gaming, board games, war games, role playing and miniatures. Most games I try to convert to miniatures. I gamed steadily until the early '90s when many of my contemporaries got into computer games. I never liked them. Fast forward to 3 years ago and my teenage son got into games and it was like a switch turned back on. I am more than a little overwhelmed by all the choices now and concentrating on my core interests has helped. Many are the same as before and many are new. During the intervening years I was into RC planes, especially WWI.

  2. #12
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Rules

    As I said I am looking at using Force on Force. I haven't read the rules for a while and only played it twice so please bear with me and any mistakes please let me know. I have to get a handle on it as I promised to run a game in a week's time.

    Man this is difficult as to keep from repeating myself I have to keep the previous page(s) open and next to this one to see what I have already stated.

    Rules Ideas and Thoughts

    Please see my previous posts for an idea of what I have in mind and these items just define or add to what I have said before.

    The primary issues as I see it are going to be all the dice rolling and the effects of leaders.


    Since each side is to be made of multiple "units" per player each of various sizes the amount of dice rolling has the potential of slowing the game down drastically. I will run a couple mini scenarios to get a feel for the rules as written but am going to think on alternates right away. One option is a single roll for each unit. The issue here is do I now create some method to convert all troops and weapons in each unit into a single dice roll modifier or keep some semblance of the original game and create a "force level" to qualify a unit for each dice it rolls. For example the rules presently have you rolling one die per trooper (regardless of base weapon) and add additional dice for support weapons also carried by the unit. So a unit having a squad support weapon would add one more die, a trooper with an under slung grenade launcher another die and so forth to a maximum of 10 dice. This automatically will limit your unit's size after all why have 10 guys, an lmg and a grenade launcher which would total about 14 dice when you could have six guys, two lmgs for the same 10 dice. Since we will be dealing with asymmetric units the unit with higher technology gets an additional die. So a group of 6 guys with assault rifles up against 10 guys with lee enfields are already down by 3 dice! I have my ideas but want to reread the rules before I give my ideas in case I am off somewhere.



    The other point is leaders. In symmetric combat between like troops all of whom are trained forces leaders have less effect in game terms as there is assumed to be another leader just waiting his turn. In their rules they state units have a preordained command organization and in the case of casualties the next leader is ready to take command. The exception is irregular forces where leaders are needed to activate units. They tend to do little without someone "kicking" them on.

    Well I have the feeling leadership should be somewhere in the middle to less likely. I want my units to benefit from leaders and to an extent require or at least rely on them. My touchstone is Chain of Command where being able to activate a leader increases the units under your command who are also able to activate. In CoC there are still limits on how many units a leader can activate but one leader brings at least (usually) two units to action while activating as a unit only activates one and maybe two. Especially since I want the gang leaders to have limits on keeping their forces in action, or keeping the leaders tied to those forces, this is especially important in this situation. In CoC leaders also help the units under their command, either by adding skills to the combat actions or removing detrimental morale effects. This is what I want. Plus a few more benefits. More than squad leader but maybe not as much as a role playing game.

  3. #13
    Member madman's Avatar
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    no replies. No interest?

  4. #14
    Super Moderator josta59's Avatar
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    I'm interested. Just didn't have a response, really. I've been interested in FoF for years, and I like reading about it. Some FoF AARs have been inspirational for me. But I've never played it myself.

  5. #15
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Fair enough. I don't respond to threads which already have responses because I feel like saying "me too" which seems kinda anal. I know Whitrook is keen but I was thinking I could go email or PMs if performing to an audience of one. Since I know you guys are out there and interested I will go on. In some ways this will keep me moving forward as well. Thank you.

  6. #16
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Sorry for not posting anything. I am not dead (yet). After mentioning this scenario and my thoughts and issues with rules sets I have been suggested about a half dozen different rules to think over. Originally my thought was "I already have a set I want to modify so screw off". I have decided to review the suggested sets, especially as I already have half, and see as I was always of the view that there may be something suitable out there and the people who made the suggestions I value their opinion.

    With that in mind does anyone have a copy of "Sons of the Desert" or one of the related rules. I think there are 3 or 4, all supposedly have 3 pages of rules, SotD is turn of the previous century FFL in Arabia, the associated rules cover French and Indian wars and wild west if I am not mistaken. They are from Old Glory and written by Stephen Lawrence.

    Thank you.

  7. #17
    Member madman's Avatar
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    On another topic. Again after discussing this scenario with learned sources the consensus is keep the number of players between 4 and 6 in total or else it will get out of control and given the environment (miniature gaming con) people wandering away, whether they return or not, will become an issue. It was also suggested to have a timer on the turns. If the players are too distracted and their forces do noting because of this then so be it. I am unsure of this as at times I can see it getting slow. This was suggested as what the fellow who ran games with the three page rule book did, so delays were minimal.

  8. #18
    Member madman's Avatar
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    I have been following a lot of Josta's posts lately and this has combined with my own thoughts. If I am repeating myself please excuse me but do point it out so I don't again.

    This post will deal with rules and potential rules and my thoughts on what is current and popular(?).

    As I have said I game nearly exclusively in 6mm. My preferred scale is units are individual vehicles, weapons (guns), troops are squads, half squads or fire teams, heavy weapons with crew and leaders either individually or as a leadership team. The ground scale is 1/1000 so a 4' x 6' table is over one mile on the long edge.

    So my original thoughts wrt this scenario were at this level where each player represented a leader of a platoon size group. After following the above I have been looking at skirmish level combat. Difficult but not impossible at 6mm, mostly due to handling and buildings.

    Skirmish level combat rules are very common and the issue is not finding them it is whittling away the chaff. That is also what seems to be occupying Josta lately as he tries a few systems. I have been following his and others and playing some of my own and the decision is not getting any clearer for me. Almost all rules share two conceits. At the given game scale, say a 4' x 6' table and 28 mm figures everything is basically in range and the main limits are created by line of sight blocks or some form of protection provided by the terrain. The other conceit, which probably started with warhammer, is instead of rolling say 2D6, or D10, D20 or up to D100 with various modifiers the tendency is to roll a single die (of various sizes depending on the game) and have the "target" roll a second die to "save versus" the first roll based either on armour, defensive terrain or quality of the target which indicates it's ability to pick and utilize the optimum defense provided by various factors.

    Now some of these games use modifiers to the various rolls for conditions, some elect to add or subtract dice as modifiers, some change the size of the dice used and some refer to different tables or values of the rolls depending on conditions occurring during the combat. The old standard from BiTD is one roll with various modifiers to that roll to allow for the combat conditions. The primary reason for the use of two rolls seems to be the need to keep both players focused on the game and their situations. Yes we have all become so easily distracted that we have to be forced to keep our attention on what we are doing. We cannot or are not to be allowed to sit back and observe our opponent's strategy in order to see how it is or is not developing in order to work up or apply our counter efforts. Our feeble minds will be taken over by our cellular phones, the play at the adjoining table (which was our number two pick to play) or heaven forbid the vendors at the convention we are attending.

    The first conceit is all of ranges makes sense for much of the weapons deployed but I have seen rules where very short range weapons can still command the table. No effort is made to limit hand guns or submachine guns both of which have a very reduced range compared to typical rifles. Taking the effective range of weapons in my favorite old school game Striker gives ranges of 10 meters for 9 mm handguns, 25 meters for SMGs and about 180 meters for assault rifles. Now a 4' x 6' table at 1:1 ground scale with 28 mm figures would give a size of 80 meters by 110. So even small calibre rifles even carbines would still range the table but handguns and SMGs should not.

    Blah, blah blah. What I am trying to say Is I have no idea what set of rules would work for skirmish, each has its pros and cons and almost all bring some novel or unique idea to the gaming table.

    So what I am trying to say is there a set of skirmish rules out there which do have range limits? I have or have tried the following and have the added comments;

    Skirmish Sangin: awfully detailed and I don't feel like giving some (limited) of their role playing for this game and most frankly
    No End in Sight: I have an old copy so not as up to date as has been discussed with Josta. Again all weapons are generic but I like the activation system, combat effects and morale.
    Chain of Command: Pretty good overall, has range limits, command and activation but the save vs hit feels weird on this one.
    Bolt Action: Plays like CoC but ridiculous forces on board kills it before the start.
    Flames of War: Bizarre feel, seems best suited to repressed accountants looking for optimized points system while the rage itself is poor and old school.
    Five Core, Squad Hammer and Wars of Insurgency: Other than possible details none of these seem any better than anything else.
    Spectre Ops, Black Ops, Ambush Alley: I have these but not looked closely. Anyone want to comment positively enough for me to review?
    Force on Force: So far the best I have tried. I like the variable troop quality but dislike the limited effects of weapon or unit improvements make. Also I feel weapons such as grenade launchers would be handled and have a much different effect and role than just adding hit dice.

    This brings me back to my two old standbys Striker and Snapshot. The cons are the weird weapons, which Traveller based sometimes make no sense, roll 2D6 and add and subtract lots of modifiers and Snapshot's old D&D style (from classic Traveller) weapon vs armour required rolls. Snapshot has an awesome method of handling weapons in close combat where long weapons like machine guns are disadvantaged while small easily handled ones such as pistols are easy to bring to bear. This penalty goes away as the target get more distant. Striker keeps the 2D6 and adds lots more modifiers. It is also more of a wargame at my desired scale than a skirmish game. Still a lot of the modifiers and detail regarding weapon employment get in the way of a quicker game. Where I feel Striker excels is in unit and equipment creation. The way it handles detailing troops and their assignment and effects in game terms for command and control is amazing. When I got back into gaming a few years ago I was intent on updating Striker to better reflect and absorb the lessons learned from newer games. I dropped that idea a while ago but the more I see the limits of modern games I feel less like living with those limits. I like some aspects of Nordic Weasel's titles but the abstractions for ease of play loose me.

    Anyways looking for ideas and especially opinions on everything and the games I have not reviewed enough.

  9. #19
    Member madman's Avatar
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    If anyone still wants to hear anything from me please respond. I can bring it back up. I have, in my opinion, been mulling this around for months and the biggest issue has been a suitable rules set. I have an idea if anyone wants to hear it. Josta it is a development of what I PMed you.

  10. #20
    Super Moderator josta59's Avatar
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    Hey, it's your thread. You're highly encouraged to write as much as you want here! I bet a lot of us will check it out.

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