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  1. #1
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Changes or Additions to No End in Sight

    As stated in another thread NEiS is not going forward according to the author. He has other newer irons in the fire so he will gladly answer questions and engage in discussions in the support forums on TWW but will not develop it further. I have a beta copy of his Hammer series which I have quickly perused and have his Fivecore company command, which covers the game scale I most like but doesn't scratch my particular itch.

    So is there any interest, other than Josta and me, for a thread with our own ideas of changes or additions to these rules? I have a few other games from which I will happily steal and modify to suit NEiS's systems. I still need more time on the system before I feel what I might want to change and whether I want to go into it here will be based on feedback. That is what I am looking for thoughts on "doing it this way not that" and "it was handled so much better by XXX".

    I know Josta is looking to pursue his Awe Frik rules but I am hoping he would be willing to chime in here from time to time. Frankly if this gets no feedback of note I may mover this to the "official" Nordic Weasel forum.


    So for a start one thing which intrigues me is the variable die "size" used in Force on Force and whether it might be incorporated. For those not familiar with FoF every action and defense has a fixed success roll, say 5+ is needed for success. A poor quality troop would roll D6 meaning they would have a 2 in 6 chance of success. An average quality trooper in a larger standing army with reasonable training would roll a D8 so would have a fifty fifty chance of success. An elite soldier, part of special forces would roll a D10 giving them a 60% success rate. Finally a super elite INDIVIDUAL of which there may be only one or two on a platoon to company size force would roll a D12 giving them an eight in twelve chance (2 in 3) chance. Despite specifying troops of this quality would be individuals in a force of special forces I have seen scenarios specifying an entire force of green well trained but never under fire troops would all be D12. Bah!

    So much of the basic game would have to be adjusted to allow for this but I do like the feel. I will be trying it at some point and have played a couple of games of FoF and of course have collected small bags of multi sided dice! I don't have it in front of me but I know FoF doesn't get into the same level of detail as NEiS wrt troop qualifications, such as troop type, experience, motivation and fanaticism. I like all those and will be keeping as much of the flavour of NEiS like that in preference to "just adding every game system in existence I like".

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by madman; 02-08-2020 at 11:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator josta59's Avatar
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    Yeah, that would totally work. Of course.

    My biggest annoyance with NEiS is with its approach to hand-to-hand combat. For one thing, it's just about the only way to kill an enemy unless you get some really lucky rolls. So you finally get your squad close enough to make contact, and then it's just a dice game. I love Ivan, but he gave very little thought toward what would happen once you finally get close enough to actually make a kill.

    Also, there's no indication in the rules for what happens in a 2-on-1 fight, which I had happen a lot. So I just had to make up my own way of doing it.

    Even worse, if a figure loses in hand-to-hand combat but survives, they retreat 3". So then what? You try it again. And it becomes this very unrealistic process of attacking and retreating that doesn't seem to reflect how close combat happens in real life. I've seen other systems do this far better, like Two Hour Wargames.

    I think it's the biggest problem of NEiS, because Ivan worked really hard to make everything else so realistic that enemies are super hard to kill. But he put very little effort into the one way he made death very likely. So how is a player ever supposed to complete their objectives, other than getting in close and hoping for the best?

    The one person I know who has used these rules a lot is Just Jack, author of the BlackHawkHet blog. He's a big inspiration for me, and he likes these rules. I may read through some of his very detailed reports again to see if he's encountered this problem.
    Last edited by josta59; 02-08-2020 at 12:40 PM.

  3. #3
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Thank you Scott. I frankly glossed over reading the hand to hand section so will have to reread it proper. Could you put into NEiS form any idea(s) for changes to H2H you feel would work? I know Just Jack's stuff. He (used?) to post on quite a few other sites and I always found his stuff interesting. Thank you for reminding me and I will have to go to his blog.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator josta59's Avatar
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    I just read this review of No End in Sight from 2014. It's pretty accurate and includes this statement about the end of the playtester's game:

    The game ended with too much stress built up for the opposing squad leaders—once too many permanent stress points build up (caused by excessive casualties), squad leaders are left without options. Tactically, it was a draw.
    (emphasis mine)

    He didn't seem to mind that result, but how many times are you going to use these rules before you get sick of that? Why would two players ever use these rules to play against each other, knowing that probably neither will win? I just don't find it that fun.

    Probably funny to hear when I was so gung-ho about these rules a few months ago. You just don't know until you really give it a good try.

  5. #5
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Very valid point. unfortunately stress is covered over quite a few sections and I will have to review the whole rules to talk knowledgeably so that will have to be later.

    If I recall correctly permanent stress is accumulated from actual casualties, wounded and killed troops. In Skirmish Sangin for example, when a team of troops gets some wounded their mission changes from whatever they were assigned to accomplish to evacuating their casualties either from the game table or to a suitable medevac site and waiting, and surviving until it comes. Apparently this is the norm for coalition forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. So this may be what Ivan is trying to force us to do as well. I seem to recall, from my reading of the Soviet Afghan war, similar things happened to Soviet forces.

    I know non permanent stress can be reduced or removed by having the affected units remain stationary and under cover for a few turns. Kind of what your non active units in your game may be considered as doing.

  6. #6
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josta59 View Post

    The one person I know who has used these rules a lot is Just Jack, author of the BlackHawkHet blog. He's a big inspiration for me, and he likes these rules. I may read through some of his very detailed reports again to see if he's encountered this problem.
    I just checked out his site and only found a few (3?) posts with NEiS from about 2014. Since there is no search or PM function on blogspot (what a waste of potential) I couldn't tell if he used it elsewhere and what his (changed?) thoughts were. He didn't mention anything in the Estonia battles covered. If you have some links to specific posts please post them here as I would very much like to see others issues or ideas, I have been following his posts elsewhere and enjoyed them. Thank you.

    Problem is now I want to collect French Foreign Legion troops! I have a lot of 6mm modern French equipment as I figured they had a major presence in Colonial Africa and would be a big source of equipment to their former colonies in some imagination African game.
    Last edited by madman; 02-09-2020 at 09:20 AM.

  7. #7
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Went over the game again last night and the only mention I saw (quick review when tired but did concentrate on casualties) of "permanent" stress is in the case of wounded, and not stabilized, dead or loss of a leader. The first couple are "free", adjusted given troop quality and experience then things build.I don't see an issue with that. You can't fill the gaps in your forces during a game, casualty stress remains, but is adjusted between games of a campaign.

    Am I missing some other source of permanent stress? Thank you.

  8. #8
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Ha! Just looking at Just Jack's "for sale" section and it seems I am the one who bought a lot of his 15mm moderns. Now I know (remember) what they are, where they came from and manufacturer!
    Last edited by madman; 02-09-2020 at 09:32 AM.

  9. #9
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josta59 View Post
    I just read this review of No End in Sight from 2014. It's pretty accurate and includes this statement about the end of the playtester's game:

    (emphasis mine)

    He didn't seem to mind that result, but how many times are you going to use these rules before you get sick of that? Why would two players ever use these rules to play against each other, knowing that probably neither will win? I just don't find it that fun.

    Probably funny to hear when I was so gung-ho about these rules a few months ago. You just don't know until you really give it a good try.
    I didn't see a link to the actual game so hard to say what caused his "permanent" stress. Was it really permanent, i.e. caused by casualties, or was it regular turn to turn stress which he did not relieve by resting his units (may not have had that option given the circumstances).

    He did mention one of his pet peeves which is also mine originally. A guy or few with weapons can close down avenues of advancement by forcing rushing troops to pin in the middle of a rush from cover to cover, say crossing an uncontrolled street in LOS of an enemy unit. I have, however, been reminded of solutions.

    Move a number of troops up to and just past the corner and open fire on the enemy. Since they moved and did not rush the enemy doesn't get opportunity fire before your troops fire. You can also claim partial cover from the corner of the building when it comes to return fire. If you can pin the enemy they cannot fire and your troops can move or rush across the street now in safety.

    Or pop some smoke down the way so you can rush concealed. This brings up my question "do irregular forces have access to smoke grenades?" They are able to get all kinds of equipment but I have not seen any info an grenades of any kind. Maybe missed that. Also can an effective source of smoke be made at home by insurgents?

  10. #10
    Member madman's Avatar
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    He also had issues with the limited movement rates. I think this is part of my rushing across openings as well. With the limited movement you have to coordinate some actions. Just like real life. And perform them at the same time, wait until the start of a turn and try to lose as many stress as possible so you have maximum activation points. Of course you can continue that movement over a few phases in a sinle turn. Especially if your opponent has become exhausted with the dangerous force.

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