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  1. #31
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiterook View Post
    Agreed....110%! Every system is different and has trade off’s, as you say. There are likely many games that unfortunately just ask too much, and push gamers away. So far, that’s not happened to me...the closest being the original Flames of War, but it didn’t drive me away.
    Flames of war drove me away when a fender to fender Marder unit dominated the battlefield despite being attacked multiple times. Even repeated attacks by Sturmoviks did nothing but cause one vehicle's crew to leave for a turn. Total BS.

  2. #32
    Administrator Whiterook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    Flames of war drove me away when a fender to fender Marder unit dominated the battlefield despite being attacked multiple times. Even repeated attacks by Sturmoviks did nothing but cause one vehicle's crew to leave for a turn. Total BS.
    That’s a great example...as I watched games being played, most notably at Origins Game Expo, there was just something about it that I both loved and shied away from. Watching a past member on one of this sites’ earlier incarnations play it (and Frank and Derek are also big players of the system), I’d be surprised at some of the carnage and lack thereof in several such units.

    On my earlier post, I failed to include another system that drove me away initially: The hex boardgame, Advanced Squad Leader. I can admire how far into the weeds it goes, and the elegance of the system overall, but the rules binder proved too much for me. With the advent of the Starter Kits, I’ve actually played the system, and enjoyed it... I can’t say I’ll ever go full system, but Tim will tell on that,
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." - George S. Patton.

  3. #33
    Member madman's Avatar
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    I was interested despite seeing pictures of fender to fender models. I assumed it was a conflicting scale thing and that seems to be the case. About an hour from here is a local hobby shop which runs regular (monthly or weekly) games and of course sells lots. Since my biggest drawback with gaming has been opponents I figured what the and gave it a try while visiting old friends in Ottawa last year. He is big into it but his long suffering son seems to put up with it as his dad is so into it. Bad sign. The basic game mechanics are really old school and have been eclipsed by so many newer techniques I was surprised how popular it was. I guess it is there, available and played. This is not to be discounted see my issues with opponents. Before the game my buddy went on about how he analyzed the points values to build the "optimum" forces. Next issue not real life organization but points value optimized and possibly subject to change with each version or revision. It played out as described with my buddy almost drooling over the game while his son and me just kept shaking our collective heads. There is a regular group in his area and he is rather successful so he is happy. I was hoping to visit again during CanGames and introduce them, or at least his son, to Chain of Command which would allow the use of the existing minis with a more "realistic(?)" or at least more fun system. That is up in the air now. Hopefully it is far enough out, late May, to be a go as I need to see them as she is a longtime friend of my late wife's and I need the contact. About the best I can say without being too down on it is the minis are the right size (15mm) for use in other games. For me WWII will exist in micro armour only. I tried the game with the intent of utilizing it in 1/285 if I liked it.

    Now Squad Leader and ASL hit many of the right points with me. Scale: time, unit and board wise is bang on where I want to go. Perhaps that is because SL came first and I found the scale and adopted it as my ideal combination is probably correct. I don't mind pushing groups of guys around the board but moving individual 6mm guys would have me pulling my hair out! And I have looked at that possibility for skirmish as the game boards would only be the size of a piece of paper or two so quite manageable. So a few months ago another guy about my age and life (micro armour nuts from back in the day with a couple kids each) gave a couple scenarios from the original Squad Leader (programmed learning is a good thing) a try with the idea that this could be the system we would use for micro armour games. He was pumped but me not so much so. Partially a lack of friction combined with the olde schoole CRT killed most of the potential joy for me. Some other issues also came to the fore. Conflict of Heroes handles many of the mechanics so much better I have to say I would play it hands down first. Still there is a lot of undiscovered, by me, potential in SL/ASL but it will have to sit on the shelf for now unless someone has house ruled friction and a cleaner combat results system (hint hint!). I did manage to try ASL a couple years ago and was totally swamped by the system. Oh two other things the IGOUGO needs to go and the pages of tables needs trimming as well. When I tried it with the ASL "guy" he said to get into the game I HAD to buy some flip booklet which combined all the ASL charts into one source. It was long out of print from some outfit in France and totaled something like 65 pages of charts!

    Well talk about getting off topic, shame Whitrook!

  4. #34
    Member madman's Avatar
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    So back on the Ambush Alley and Force on Force rules. I consider them pretty much the same thing along with Tomorrow's War so feel putting all three of them in this thread is quite valid. As I said, probably too many times, earlier my primary game scale is 1/300, 1/285, 5mm, 6mm or micro armour or whatever you want to call it. I freely mix all those "scales" along with manufacturers, periods and for now rules. I also have 15mm in much smaller amounts for use in skirmish gaming which is a hold over from my Traveller gaming days where they (at some point in time) made it the defacto scale for use in their games. Either for interior combat in games like Snapshot or Azhanti High Lightning or as designated for their Striker (my personal obsession) miniatures game.

    So, whether this stays here or is spun off into a new thread, and personally I like it here, my intent is to look at modifying (if they need much in any case) these rules to suit my needs for both 6mm larger battles (platoon to battalion per side or player) and for skirmish where individuals are less tied to their "units" and more able to function. Since my obsession with Traveller and Striker still exists it will always be in the back of my head, and probably put forward in what I write, that any games will allow those rules components and feel to be incorporated.

    Go ahead or go away somewhere else?

  5. #35
    Administrator Whiterook's Avatar
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    Proceed!

    Great dialogue and I’m interested to see where it goes. For intents of learning, if you see a chance to ‘teach’ with the material, consider additions to the War College.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." - George S. Patton.

  6. #36
    Member madman's Avatar
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    At the risk of endlessly repeating myself please have both patience and tell me what I am saying over again.

    At this point I am looking into a few games for micro armour. I do not want to have to buy them so am asking for more specific info from gamers who have posted on other lists. Nothing will be done until I have answers there.

    If I go forward with this the best set of rules I have found so far is Ambush Alley/Force on Force/Tomorrows War and possibly Ambush Z. If anyone has links to where I might get Ambush Z it would be appreciated. I assume it is similar to the above. It is referenced in one of the expansions I have received lately. I will be posting at various other sites linking here as well as emailing some guys who have been assisting me, providing links and files and are my regular gaming buddies so all the above can have input as well as see what my mind is doing.

    I would like to see four threads.

    1. Probably this one which would bring together the games as written to answer questions and address issues.

    2. One for a skirmish modifications. I know the game is supposed to be for skirmish but in my mind there are some issues. Others have dismissed my issues and after a few games they may not really be issues. The game would be oriented to a platoon per side with individual troopers.

    3. One for micro armour level game. This is using FoF as a basis for whatever scale but the intent is covering actions of a couple companies per side with squad or fire team size units and individual vehicles and weapons. The detail for weapons and armour would be ramped up closer to how it is handled in other micro armour games.

    4. Science fiction which would be based on near future and above and heavily influenced by my Traveller and Striker obsession.

  7. #37
    Administrator Whiterook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    At the risk of endlessly repeating myself please have both patience and tell me what I am saying over again.

    At this point I am looking into a few games for micro armour. I do not want to have to buy them so am asking for more specific info from gamers who have posted on other lists. Nothing will be done until I have answers there.

    If I go forward with this the best set of rules I have found so far is Ambush Alley/Force on Force/Tomorrows War and possibly Ambush Z. If anyone has links to where I might get Ambush Z it would be appreciated. I assume it is similar to the above. It is referenced in one of the expansions I have received lately. I will be posting at various other sites linking here as well as emailing some guys who have been assisting me, providing links and files and are my regular gaming buddies so all the above can have input as well as see what my mind is doing.

    I would like to see four threads.

    1. Probably this one which would bring together the games as written to answer questions and address issues.

    2. One for a skirmish modifications. I know the game is supposed to be for skirmish but in my mind there are some issues. Others have dismissed my issues and after a few games they may not really be issues. The game would be oriented to a platoon per side with individual troopers.

    3. One for micro armour level game. This is using FoF as a basis for whatever scale but the intent is covering actions of a couple companies per side with squad or fire team size units and individual vehicles and weapons. The detail for weapons and armour would be ramped up closer to how it is handled in other micro armour games.

    4. Science fiction which would be based on near future and above and heavily influenced by my Traveller and Striker obsession.
    I’m OK with keeping this thread as your active thread for #1.

    As for #2-4, I think you need to look at creating new threads in the War College: Specifically, The lab Vault if you are altering existing rules into something else; and if you want to actually demonstrate and try out mechanics based on that, The ATL.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." - George S. Patton.

  8. #38
    Member madman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiterook View Post
    I’m OK with keeping this thread as your active thread for #1.

    As for #2-4, I think you need to look at creating new threads in the War College: Specifically, The lab Vault if you are altering existing rules into something else; and if you want to actually demonstrate and try out mechanics based on that, The ATL.
    We will see what happens and therefore where it goes. Personally I would like to see a dedicated Ambush Alley sub section. But then again I wanted one for No End in Sight too!

  9. #39
    Administrator Whiterook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madman View Post
    We will see what happens and therefore where it goes. Personally I would like to see a dedicated Ambush Alley sub section. But then again I wanted one for No End in Sight too!
    Yeah, that gets a little dicey... I’d like one for Battlefield Evolution, DUST Warfare, Battlestar Galactica Starship Battles, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Where would the Bunker/Pillbox end and the Command Posts start? It’s honestly, difficult to pick and choose categories on the forum, as we don’t want it so long that it’s overwhelming.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." - George S. Patton.

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